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Atheist or Agnostic?

Author/DatePost
Anonymous
Jan 28 2005
Atheist Test

The theory of evolution of the Coca Cola can.

Billions of years ago, a big bang produced a large rock. As the rock cooled, sweet brown liquid formed on its surface. As time passed, aluminum formed itself into a can, a lid, and a tab. Millions of years later, red and white paint fell from the sky, and formed itself into the words "Coca Cola 12 fluid ounces."

Of course, my theory is an insult to your intellect, because you know that if the Coca Cola can is made, there must be a maker. If it is designed, there must be a designer. The alternative, that it happened by chance or accident, is to move into an intellectual free zone.

The banana-the atheist's nightmare.

Note that the banana:

Is shaped for human hand

Has non-slip surface

Has outward indicators of inward content:

Green-too early,

Yellow-just right,

Black-too late.

Has a tab for removal of wrapper

Is perforated on wrapper

Bio-degradable wrapper

Is shaped for human mouth

Has a point at top for ease of entry

Is pleasing to taste buds

Is curved towards the face to make eating process easy

To say that the banana happened by accident is even more unintelligent than to say that no one designed the Coca Cola can.

TEST ONE

The person who thinks the Coca Cola can had no designer is:

___ A. Intelligent

___ B. A fool

___ C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious

Did you know that the eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings, the focusing muscles move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells?

Charles Darwin said,

"To suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

If man cannot begin to make a human eye, how could anyone in his right mind think that eyes formed by mere chance? In fact, man cannot make anything from nothing. We don't know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop . . . but we cannot create even one grain of sand from nothing. Yet, the eye is only a small part of the most sophisticated part of creation-the human body.

George Gallup, the famous statistician, said,

"I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity."

Albert Einstein said,

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble."

TEST TWO

A. Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder?

___ YES ___ NO

B. Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter?

___ YES ___ NO

C. Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker?

___ YES ___ NO

If you answered "YES" for any of the above, give details:

_____________________________________________

_____________________________________________

Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and they by chance fell into ten rows of five oranges? The logical conclusion is that someone with an intelligent mind put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall by accident into a straight line are mind-boggling, let alone ten rows of five.

TEST THREE

A. From the atom to the universe, is there order?

___ YES ___ NO

B. Did it happen by accident?

___ YES ___ NO

C. Or, must there have been an intelligent mind?

___ YES ___ NO

D. What are the chances of 50 oranges falling by chance

into ten rows of five oranges? ______________________

If you answered "YES" for any of the above, give details:

_____________________________________________

_____________________________________________

The declaration "There is no God" is what is known as an absolute statement. For an absolute statement to be true, I must have absolute knowledge.

Here is another absolute statement: "There is no gold in China."

TEST FOUR

What do I need to have for that statement to be true?

A. No knowledge of China.

___ YES ___ NO

B. Partial knowledge of China.

___ YES ___ NO

C. Absolute knowledge of China.

___ YES ___ NO

"C" is the correct answer. For the statement to be true, I must know that there is no gold in China, or the statement is incorrect. To say "There is no God," and to be correct in the statement, I must be omniscient.

I must know how many hairs are upon every head, every thought of every human heart, every detail of history, every atom within every rock...nothing is hidden from my eyes...I know the intimate details of the secret love-life of the fleas on the back of the black cat of Napolean's great-grandmother. To make the absolute statement "There is no God." I must have absolute knowledge that there isn't one.

Let's say that this circle represents all the knowledge in the entire universe, and let's assume that you have an incredible 1% of all that knowledge. Is it possible, that in the knowledge you haven't yet come across, there is ample evidence to proved that God does indeed exist?

If you are reasonable, you will have to say, "Having the limited knowledge that I have at present, I believe that there is no God." In other words, you don't know if God exists, so you are not an "atheist," you are what is commonly known as an "agnostic." You are like a man who looks at a building, and doesn't know if there was a builder.

TEST FIVE

The man who sees a building and doesn't know if there was a builder is:

___ A. Intelligent

___ B. A fool

___ C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious

Perhaps you have questions that hold you back from faith. First, almost every question you have about suffering humanity etc., can be adequately answered.

Second, we have faith in plenty of things we don't understand. Did you understand the mechanics of television before you turned it on? Probably not. You took a step of faith, turned it on, and after it worked, understanding how it worked wasn't that important. We accept that there are unseen television waves right in front of our eyes. We can't see them because they are invisible. For them to manifest, we need a receiver, then we can enjoy the experience of television.

God is not flesh and blood. He is an eternal Spirit-immortal and invisible. Like the television waves, He cannot be experienced until the "receiver" is switched on. Here is something you will find hard to believe: Jesus said, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21).

Either that is true or it isn't. Jesus Christ says that He will manifest Himself to anyone who obeys Him. Approach the subject the same way you approached your first television set. Just take a small step of faith. If it works, enjoy it, if it doesn't, forget it.

Or have you an ulterior motive? Could it be that the "atheist" can't find God, for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman? Could it be that your love for sin is clouding your good judgment? If the Bible is true, and Jesus Christ has "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel," then you owe it to yourself just to check it out. Here is how to do that:

TEST SIX

With a tender conscience,

check this list of the Ten Commandments: Have I always loved God my Creator with all my heart, mind, soul and strength?

Have I made a god in my own image—a god to suit myself?

Have I ever used God's name in vain?

Have I kept the Sabbath holy?

Have I always honored my parents implicitly?

Have I murdered (God considers hatred as murder)?

Have I committed adultery (including premarital sex and lust)?

Have I stolen (the value is irrelevant)?

Have I lied (including fibs and these questions)?

Have I coveted (been greedy or materialistic)?

____YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

___ YES ___NO

If you have even broken one Law, then you have sinned against God and therefore will "surely die," for the "wages of sin is death."

We are all guilty of breaking the Commandments. Listen to the voice of your conscience, and let it remind you of some of the sins of the past. We are not perfect as we are commanded to be (Matthew 5:48), neither is our heart pure. On Judgment Day our transgressions will be evidence of our shame. Think of it: God has seen every sin we have ever committed. We share our thought-life with Him.

We are guilty of violating His Law a multitude of times, yet if we repent, God can forgive us because Jesus stepped into the courtroom 2.000 years ago and paid the fine for us.

His death on the cross satisfied the Law we so blatantly transgressed, and at the same time demonstrated how much God loves us—"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." His shed blood on the cross can make you clean in the sight of a holy God...as though you have never sinned.

God doesn't want you to go to Hell. Please, forget your arguments, repent and put your trust in Jesus and be saved from God's wrath. Make Psalm 51 your prayer, then read your Bible daily and always obey what you read; God will never let you down.

Alex_Kasman
Jan 31 2005
can beautiful/useful things only be created intentionally?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the need for a creator and your concern about me going to hell. Your arguments, although humorously stated, are old ones which do not seem to me to stand up to even the smallest challenge. I don't know whether you intend to come back and read replies, but just in case let me make a few comments.

I suppose your biggest mistake is thinking that unless there is a sentient being with intent, useful and/or beautiful things will not be created. As it turns out, beautiful and useful things can come into being from just a few simple rules without any particular intent.

Consider a mathematical example. The Mandelbrot Set (see http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/mandelbrot/mandelbrot.html) is most definitely beautiful (that's why you see it and other fractals on posters and screensavers and t-shirts, etc.), and it exists just because of the properties of the numbers. You just color the points based on how long it takes the numbers to get really big when you repeatedly square them and subtract a constant, and you get this beautiful picture. It is hard to imagine that "God created this", because, after all, its just a question of what number you get when you square a starting number and subtract a constant. Do you think that God could have made 2 times 2 anything other than 4, or 4 minus 3 anything other than 1? If not, then this beautiful shape, the Mandelbrot set, exists without a creator. It is just a beautiful consequence of the numbers themselves.

Now, I know that most people don't share my tolerance for mathematics, so let me move onto nature. Do I know of a building that was not made by a builder? SURE, how about the caves that are homes to bears and bats. They were carved out by water flowing from one place to another. (If you don't believe that, then take a look at the caves that are just now being formed by such flows. They look an awful lot like the older caves. The older caves definitely show signs of wear from flowing water...as well as other signs of the presence of water including evidence of creatures that lived in water. Also take a look at webpages such as http://www.rgs.edu.sg/events/geotrip/stack.html) So, I think that caves are a good example of a building without a builder.

How about a painting without a painter? Sure, you ever hear of the PAINTED DESERT? It's a beautiful painting that reflects nothing other than the changing mineral composition over a long time as these rocks were laid down. Here's a quote from another website The landforms of the Painted Desert have been described as a multicolored layer cake. The variety of hues in the sandstone and mudstone layers of the Chinle Formation is the result of the varying mineral content in the sediments and the rate at which the sediments were laid down. When sediments are deposited slowly, oxides of iron and (hematite) aluminum become concentrated in the soil. These concentrations create the red, orange, and pink colors you see at the north end of the park. During a rapid sediment buildup such as a flooding event, oxygen is removed from the soil forming the blue, gray, and lavender layers. You will see these colors as you travel through the southern portion of the park.

As for your banana example, it has several important differences as compared to the cola can. For one thing, the banana reproduces. (Perhaps you've noticed. It contains seeds. You plant them. Another tree grows. That doesn't happen with a coke can, right?) When a thing reproduces there is the possibility of evolution acting on it. Since plants benefit from having their fruit eaten by animals, it is not at all a surprise that they evolved to have fruits that are good in this way. Nobody needs to have "planned" it. Look, suppose there was an island with only two fruit trees and a bunch of animals. The trees are almost the same, but one has fruits that are tasty and easy to open while the other has tiny fruits with a tough skin. The animals on the island like to take the fruits from the tree with the good tasting, easy fruit. By carrying the fruits (and spreading their seeds with their feces as well...sorry) the good tasting fruit tree finds its seed spread over the island while the other tree has seeds that grow underneath their parent tree (not nearly so good and less likely to grow to adulthood because of competition). The process can continue if a future offspring of the good fruit tree happens to produce an even BETTER fruit and would then be able to outcompete its cousins.

So, yes. You are right. If I found a coke can in space I'd presume someone made it. But, for a fruit tree, no such assumption is needed.

Now, a quiz for you: If you think that everything good and useful that exists must have a creator, and you believe that God is both good and useful, who is God's creator?

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Comfort
Jan 31 2005
who is God's creator?

To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. As I just previously stated, every building has a builder. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self-evident). That’s why the Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’" (Psalm 14:1). The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his belief by thinking that the question "Who made God?" can’t be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.

The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, "Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn’t. If there is a brick wall with "The End" written on it, the question arises, "What is behind the brick wall?" Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.

The Bible also informs us that time is a dimension that God created, into which man was subjected. It even tells us that one day time will no longer exist. That will be called "eternity." God Himself dwells outside of the dimension He created (2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not subject to time. God spoke history before it came into being. He can move through time as a man flips through a history book.

Because we live in the dimension of time, logic and reason demand that everything must have a beginning and an end. We can understand the concept of God’s eternal nature the same way we understand the concept of space having no beginning and end—by faith. We simply have to believe they are so, even though such thoughts put a strain on our distinctly insufficient cerebrums.

Anonymous
Jan 31 2005
Re: who is God's creator?

To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. As I just previously stated, every building has a builder. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self-evident). That’s why the Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’" (Psalm 14:1). The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his belief by thinking that the question "Who made God?" can’t be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.

Well, please indulge me with an explanation of how this is obvious, because despite the fact that you don't believe it, I am a person who has examined the evidence and doubt God's existence. I'm open to an explanation of why you think I'm wrong, but simply saying I don't exist is even less convincing than simply telling me God does!

As I explained, I can imagine a building without a builder...the beautiful geological structures on the Earth and on other planets do not require the existence of a builder to explain them since they come about by geological means. Sure, Coke cans don't pop into existence without a person thinking about it, but beautiful and interesting things do. Have you ever seen a geode? Gorgeous interesting things. One does not need to invoke the notion of an intelligent creator to explain them, however, because they are created by the chemistry of minerals and the pressure of the geological forces of the planet. Now, we COULD have a discussion about whether God did create those forces and that would be much more interesting to me. However, I disagree with your claim that things like geodes and caves and even bananas could not come into existence without some intentional plan. (How much do you know of physics, biology and math? Perhaps your background in those areas is too weak for you to appreciate how much can happen when inanimate matter follows the basic laws of physics.)

The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, "Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn’t. If there is a brick wall with "The End" written on it, the question arises, "What is behind the brick wall?" Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.

Why are you willing to apply this notion of "always existing" to God and not to the universe and matter and the laws of physics? Couldn't those have always existed without a creator? As you admit, it is difficult for us to consider such concepts in the case of God OR in the case of the universe, but you like to suggest that I'm a complete fool for believing that the universe -- as beautiful and interesting as it is -- was always here without a creator, but I don't see how this is any more foolish than believing in a God who does.

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Nick_Wright
Feb 2 2005

Alex has already answered the question of the banana precisely as I would have. As for the painting and the building, I've heard this line of rhetoric before, and it does not hold up under scrutiny. My response to it involves mollusks.

It has been reasoned by certain theists that the universe, and by extension the human being, is a work of art because it produces an aesthetic response within the human mind. And according to them, since no art can exist without an artist, human beings must have had a creator.

If you think that no art can exist without an artist, I invite you to consider the pearl. Humans have found the pearl to be aesthetically beautiful for thousands of years, and it is still widely sought after for ornate and expensive jewelry. The pearl is art, but is the oyster that produced it an artist?

No.

The pearl is nothing more than a collection of mollusk secretions wrapped around a wayward food particle or grain of sand. The oyster is not an artist. The oyster only creates the pearl to deal with the problem at hand, that is, a piece of foreign matter within its body. The oyster does not know or care that humans treasure its waste.

If you still consider the oyster to be an artist, then we could all be artists every time we go to the bathroom.

reasonwithme
Apr 29 2007
Re: Atheist Test

Did you know that the eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings, the focusing muscles move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells?

Charles Darwin said,

"To suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

If man cannot begin to make a human eye, how could anyone in his right mind think that eyes formed by mere chance? In fact, man cannot make anything from nothing. We don't know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop . . . but we cannot create even one grain of sand from nothing. Yet, the eye is only a small part of the most sophisticated part of creation-the human body.

Albert Einstein said,

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble."

i like how you selectively quoted darwin and einstein. if you would have quoted the text following darwin's statement you would know that he goes into depth explaining how the eye came to be....but you probably never read his book and just saw that quote somewhere and thought you had something.

also, einstein was not christian. how about these quotes from him:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

—Albert Einstein

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

--Albert Einstein

GFrench
Dec 16 2007
Re: Atheist Test

The banana-the atheist's nightmare.

Note that the banana:

Is shaped for human hand

Has non-slip surface

Has outward indicators of inward content:

Green-too early,

Yellow-just right,

Black-too late.

Has a tab for removal of wrapper

Is perforated on wrapper

Bio-degradable wrapper

Is shaped for human mouth

Has a point at top for ease of entry

Is pleasing to taste buds

Is curved towards the face to make eating process easy

To say that the banana happened by accident is even more unintelligent than to say that no one designed the Coca Cola can.

Just a note...it also fits monkey hands and mouths.

GFrench
Dec 16 2007
Re: Atheist Test

Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and they by chance fell into ten rows of five oranges? The logical conclusion is that someone with an intelligent mind put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall by accident into a straight line are mind-boggling, let alone ten rows of five.

D. What are the chances of 50 oranges falling by chance

into ten rows of five oranges? ______________________

If you answered "YES" for any of the above, give details:

_____________________________________________

_____________________________________________

How about if you had 4.5 billion years to drop them? Every time one landed in the correct spot, it stayed. Eventually you would have your rows.

Although, if you had 4.5 billion years, there is a good chance that they would all line up on one toss at least once, but we all know that evolution rarely works that way. It's all about gradual benneficial changes.

Do yourself a favor and read up on how evolution works before trying to debate against evolution. You might even realize that it makes sense, and no designer is needed when given enough time.

As for your eyeball arguement: Did you know that humans have very limited vision skills when compared to many other animals? If we are so chosen by god, then why can't we see in the dark like cats, or see more colors than we do as some tropical fish, birds, and insects do?

How about our sense of smell? Why is ours so limited? Why do we rely on dogs to smell drugs, gunpowder, and cancer if we are supposed to be so perfect?

Simple answer is that those features evolved to help that organism survive. Our features evolved to help us survive.

Research this question and post a good answer: Why do some things smell good and some things smell bad?

Larry_Carter_Center
Dec 30 2007
Kirk Cameron clone?

Very few xians dare to post on this SHL forum. They fear losing their faith which can not be substantiated by reason. For the xian who has posted here, he obviously is incapable of responding to Alex or Nick.

I've seen the pathetic video of Kirk Cameron & his banana blather.

Give a kid a job on a television show & some grow up to be incompetent preachers for the ignorant & unintelligible alleged deities crowd. Give a boy Bush an illegal ticket into the White House & you get theocratic appointees running the bookstore & tours of the Grand Canyon.

Stem cell research funding gets vetoed. Anti-abortion papists are now numbering 5 on the US Sup Ct. The FBI faith based initiative redirected billions of dollars from lawful programs to the most incompetent & irrational of "providers" namely fundie churches.

Fibonacci sequences are also evident in nature. DNA can be both random & evolving as well as beautiful patterns for observers to note. Religious claimants have a violent & irrational agenda for Jehovah & are biblioterrorists thinly veiled as humorists in this thread. Burning anyone in hell forever is hardly "gawdly" or good or an intelligent "design." The King James Bible "god" is a phantasmagorical monster worthy only of contempt, not a single nanosecond of "worship" by intelligent people who've actually read "his" accomplishments like drowning all species save for a single family of "believers" who built an "ark" with alleged space for breeding pairs of all species. Only an idiot who can not count past a few thousand would "believe" that the feces alone from all such species would cause such a stench that the few humans on board would could not breathe. And Jehovah kept all these species from eating each other? There is nothing intelligent about those who designed the King James Bible. If you like horror, try Steven King, he's a more skilled author than the confabulation of "holy" writers.

Dragonm47
Dec 30 2007
Did you know...

That accoring to the bible, Noah was 950 years old at the time of his death!!?? That's simply amazing!! :roll:

Larry_Carter_Center
Dec 31 2007
950 "years" might equal lunar months in mistransla

the King James Bible into English, from German, Greek, Aramaic & Latin alleged "sources" has been so poorly translated, re-translated & mis-translated deliberately that no passage can be taken seriously, Hebrew letters double as numbers. Only "tradition" is claimed to reveal usage in any "context." ....Divide 12/13 into 950 & you get lunar month ages instead of "years" & the alleged personality "Noah" is a more typical age range of 79/73.... Hebrew has no vowels & for centuries had no "dots" where a vowel was "traditionally" called for.....claiming all this shit is "inerrant" & "infallible" is just plain incompetent, insane & irrational but ignorance never stopped a preacher from making such claims

tersse
Jan 17 2008
make or bake

did the world and the univers become from a creator, or was it simply a set or rules that came about by chance or chaos.

i belive in chaos, if you throw 20 marbles into a cone shape with a whole at the bottom big enough for 1 marble at a time to pass through and all the marbles are numbered what order will they pass through the whole, and explain in a way that will prove a creator or chaos theory.

a creator would obviously have ythem go through in an orderly fasion 1-20,

chaos tells us there are so many variables afecting them, that they will never fall through in the same order, in the same time, not much more proof needed to disprove a creator.

or do you disagree?

tersse
Jan 17 2008
bannana? created by design, lol

it is pbvious y we have bananas, and not just one type, if they tasted horible and looked so odd as to be hard to hold like say a star fruit, they would have been neglected by animals and not spread to to the areas fertile and plesant for them to multiply, look at the carrot the turnip, wheat, just about any of the food we eat even the animals we farm, they are all geneticaly evolved from some far off origin that was nighter as nutrisious, nor bountifull in its production of edible parts, they are simply the result of selection, selection by the organism that ate it for nurishment, even if you look at things we find un palatable you will find, some organism that most likely is soly dependant on that plant or fruit, and uses it as that organisms only source of nutrient and or habitat, such as the fungus that some ants grow in their nest, it exists no were else and has no other function that to feed those ants.

tersse
Jan 17 2008
Re: 950 "years" might equal lunar months in mistra

the King James Bible into English, from German, Greek, Aramaic & Latin alleged "sources" has been so poorly = ignorance never stopped a preacher from making such claims

there is no point going ever bible is true or not we all know its man made, and for a good reson, there was a time in the evolution of man that these stories in civilisations were necesary for the retention of knowlege, in a society were less than 1% of ppl could read and write, there is no better way to pass knowlege needed for the survival of the group than in storys and songs, just look at the last hunter gatherers left on the planet, they still pass the knowlege of survival by song dance and storys, and pass needed survival knowlege by teatching father to son mother to daughter, bibals are varied and many, and most have the same thread passing through them, dont steal, dont kill for nothing, dont lie, dont covet, show strangers hospitality ( this is like do unto others as they would do etc), these are all survival traights, even when we started to make inteligent pixels on computer programs we found that the ones programed to cooperate woith others unless shown agreson flurished better than the ones that showed agresion and selfishness as their first contact with others.

tersse
Jan 17 2008
proof of god

this isnt realy proof of god so much as proof that you belive in god, i dont meen a god i meen if you belive that 1 god made evrything, then you must belive that he didnt give any of us humans the right to call him our god, if he created evry thing and evry one, then we are all his creations and loves us all equaly,

so here is the question,

is your fath the chosen ones, or are we all beloved by god, to be acepted into his house for what we are, and not what some other human sais we need to be.

and wont god be mad at any one here on earth causing truble and strife by killing onother human for some made up rules, after all, how many ppl have lived on this earth before the bibles we read now were writen.

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